Curse

xRustyx · Feb 05, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Hold up before you post WTF in quick reply. I know you’re probably thinking this is a stupid idea, right? Well let me explain why I think this is not so stupid. As you know, Skill Balances are an integral part of a MMO, especially Guild Wars where it is marketed as a “skill over time” game. We also know that GW was initially marketed as a competitive game with an emphasis on PvP. As time passed, Anet has shifted towards PvE, due to the simple fact it makes them money while PvP costs them money. (Free food and hungry gamers during tournaments, anyone?) PvP tournaments have been more publicity stunts than anything else, attracting crowds of interested onlookers, who might pick up GW at their local stores.

As a result of this shift, the PvP-side of game balance has been somewhat neglected (which is the more critical side as opposed to PVE game balances). The PvP community has moaned about long waits for balance patches, and the ‘metagame’ being a joke. And I’m inclined to agree with them. As you may or may not know, Izzy is basically the ninja PR for the PvP community. He has trouble balancing skills due to the fact he has to please both sides of the conversation, PVE AND PVP. Making skills separate would not only allow more freedom to skill balancers, but it would make their jobs much much easier, thus decreasing the time for us impatient gamers. Making separate variations of skills also allows PVE Monsters to do different things, and generally PVE will become more interesting and a “skill-based” affair. Afterall, right now PVE is easy as hell apart from Domain of Anguish. And it’s repetitive, since there’s no real challenge and rewards are just better looking items. (The gear aspect doesn’t actually affect gameplay that much, if you think about the modifiers on the gears.) Thus the move from GW PVE players to WoW. And don’t deny it hasn’t happened, I know dozens of PVP/PVERS that have moved to WoW simply because they know how to market a game to gamers more than Arena.net. No offense meant, tis the truth.

If you’ve played mainstream PvP, especially competitive GvG you would notice not many skills are used. As I’ve said before, PvP is ALL ABOUT game balance. In a game like GW where skills dictate the methods of winning or losing, skill balance are of the utmost importance. Due to these unused skills, they could be revamped for PVE usage, or PVP usage. This would mean the stale metagame would become more varied as players could choose other skills (methods). Afterall, why would you run what everyone expects you to run, when there are other balanced skills out there? The metagame is only stale due to overpowered skills. This is a competitive game, you play to win.

Would it be more work? Initially yes, it would be tons of work. But after the implementation, things will gradually become easier. Izzy would no longer have to spend tedious amounts of time on each skill in order to attempt a perfect nerf or buff, trying to please both sides of the crowd. I see nothing wrong with this logic, skills that are great for both PVE and PVP could be left untouched, while other skills that aren’t really being used could be changed differently for two very different gametypes.

I’d appreciate it if you posted /signed, or your opinions, and generate a lot of popularity on this thread. GW PvP community has been dying over the past few months, especially in the GvG area. GvG is regarded as the highest competitive form available in the PvP gametype, and I’d hate to see this community I love to just dwindle away. GW had amazing potential and it still does, all Anet have to do is make the right changes to achieve what gamers envisioned when they bought the product.

Chris On Drugs · Feb 05, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

/signed, would help game balance a lot imo

Infectious · Feb 05, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Just get the balance right in the first place. If a skill is balanced a skill is balanced end of story.
Don't see any reason why it just can't be this way.

*lemming* · Feb 05, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

/signed

Rusty is smart.

Wrynn · Feb 05, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

IIRC, Everquest set up something similar to this, as the skills for defeating a level 500 dragon or whatever needed to be different from killing other players in a pvp setting

I agree that the initial implementation would probably be long and tedious, but it MIGHT get me to at least come back and try out the game again if they did. As the game stands, ill stick with WoW until Warhammer comes out.

xRustyx · Feb 05, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Just get the balance right in the first place. If a skill is balanced a skill is balanced end of story.
Don't see any reason why it just can't be this way.

Well it's easier said than done. PVE and PVP are two completely different games to be honest, so how can you create or balance ONE skill in TWO completely different environments? To a balance a skill for PVP you may have to completely ruin the skill in PVE. Take Searing Flames for example. For it to really be balanced it'd have to have way less power than it has right now, but then it'd be completely useless in PVE.

Wrynn · Feb 05, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Just get the balance right in the first place. If a skill is balanced a skill is balanced end of story.
Don't see any reason why it just can't be this way.

as I mentioned in my comment, everquest had something set up like what the OP suggested

Think of it this way (still using EQ as an example)

If they want to make the skill work the same in both environments, then lets say, at max level a character has 2k HP, but they want to make a raid or whatever against a dragon that has 200k HP

You have one fireball spell that does the same dmg in both situations? how do you balance any skills usefulness in the latter situation without making it too powerful in the former?

The disparity in the environments is already there, might as well make the disparity in the skills as well...

Also, consider this : Theres ZERO reason to bring "shut down" type spells in pve. You dont need a mesmer to divert out an NPC monks bar. Why? Because quite simply, things dont LIVE long enough to justify bringing that skill. Why would you need to "remove" a skill from an enemies bar (except in specific circumstances) when the things gonna be dead before it casts it twice anyway?

Infectious · Feb 05, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Don't get me wrong here, I know it is easier said than done. But PvE and PvP might be 2 different beasts but its not like in everquest where you have to beat level 500 dragons.
Searing flames is about as shit as an example you could think of I think. How is it still useless in PvE? Searing flames power has always been in running 2+ copies.
It still burns things, it still dishes out damage, it still has AoE damage, it still takes half a skill bar devoted to it.
The glowing gaze hit was more what killed searing flames rather than 2 seconds off the burning.
So I still stand by my statement.
And just before you bring up jagged bones, that skill was a LITTLE unbalanced to begin with, it was the soul reaping that it was triggering that was the problem, no way was the hit it got just.

:edit:
Your point about not needing mesmer's is more due to the fact monster AI is so predictable and exploitable that you should never need to remove a skill. If player monks were as stupid as NPC monks you wouldn't need to shut them down or remove skills in PvP either.

zwei2stein · Feb 05, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Problem is, moaning will still go on.

i.e:

imagine skill buffed for PvP version but not buffed for PvE version - you would get tons of anrgy PvErs ...
ir maybe skill was nerfed for PvP but not PvE - i bet some PvPers would come and rant about operpowered skill still bein overpowered.

eventually, any change happening in one enviroment will produce rants about it being unfair and being needed in other part of game too.

Taala · Feb 05, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

/not signed

For the same reasons I wrote to that other thread about this yesterday.

Lonesamurai · Feb 05, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taala

/not signed

For the same reasons I wrote to that other thread about this yesterday.

Also /not signed...

its one game, you balance around PvP as PvE balance revolves around the same mechanic...

If a farming build gets nerfed, change builds or group farm... Guild Wars isn't a solo game and it has been stated that the drop rate is higher in a group anyway!

Quest_techie · Feb 05, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Also /not signed...

its one game, you balance around PvP as PvE balance revolves around the same mechanic...

If a farming build gets nerfed, change builds or group farm... Guild Wars isn't a solo game and it has been stated that the drop rate is higher in a group anyway!

solo farming is not just about the drops, speed, not having to work with others, and the novelty contribute, also the rubicks cube of figuring out the build itself <for some people> also some people don't want to see drops go to others without extenuating circumstances

this game IS partially about solo farming, it doesn't matter what the republican response from anet is, this game still does allow solo farming even though it is made more difficult in some places, and in some ways, they have not once made small group farming impossible anywhere, difficult, yes, impossible, no

I would like to see seperate sets if only because it would allow more complicate puzzles without regard to the potential harm to the pvp community <who bitch about nerfs because some pve carebears screwed the economy, so the meta got sent into iway ruination>

Antheus · Feb 05, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Since this pops up daily, despite threads like this being closed one after another:

Balance in GW is not grind dependant. Hence, it depends on player's choice of skills and their gameplay skill.

So, learn2play. Then no nerf will bother you.

The only people who complain about skill balance, are those that stumbled upon a gimmick build which was then (completely understandably to most) changed to no longer have an artificial edge.

So far, every build (team or individual) has been counterable. The changes that do occur, merely shake things up, so you don't run the same lame gimmick for 2 years.

And PvE is easy enough as it is. So the only way to balance the PvE skills would be to reduce the effectiveness of skills available to them.

xRustyx · Feb 05, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneSamurai

Also /not signed...

its one game, you balance around PvP as PvE balance revolves around the same mechanic...

If a farming build gets nerfed, change builds or group farm... Guild Wars isn't a solo game and it has been stated that the drop rate is higher in a group anyway!

My thread isn't about complaining, or some such. If you think PvP and PvE balance revolves around the same mechanic, then you are wrong. PvP and PvE are two completely different types of gameplay. The only thing similiar is the skills. This whole suggestion wasn't about drop rates or farming builds, and if you thought it was then please take the time to read it again. Alternatively you could hit quick reply and attempt to flame me, but I'm not personally attacking you only trying to change your opinion through logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

So, learn2play. Then no nerf will bother you.

The only people who complain about skill balance, are those that stumbled upon a gimmick build which was then (completely understandably to most) changed to no longer have an artificial edge.

You're wrong. Not only one-trick guilds complain about skill balance. If you've actually been in competitive PvP you would know this. I'm making an assumption that you haven't, because if you have you would know this statement is false. Everyone complains about various skill balances, unnecessary nerfs or wrong nerfs.

And if you think this situation could be simply solved by a "Learn2play", you're wrong. Nerfs bother everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

And PvE is easy enough as it is. So the only way to balance the PvE skills would be to reduce the effectiveness of skills available to them.

This wasn't about balancing PVE skills, PVE balancing is an idiotic mentality. How can you attempt to "balance" a skill against mobs of AI controlled players? You can nerf it, or buff a skill but you can't "balance" against a bot with no opinion. PVE is all about grinding and reaching one objective after another by slaying mobs in repetition. Every MMO needs grind in order for players to keep coming back. It's in PVP where balance is crucial, but I've already stated that.

I was talking about changing PVE skills and the way they interact with all the elements in the game, in order to provide a more engaging and interesting environment. Right now all you need is as many copies of Searing Flames to obliterate PVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Problem is, moaning will still go on.

Moaning will always go on. No game can satisfying 100% of the population, thus there will always be people who whine and groan. This thread isn't about stopping moaning or bitching or some fairy-tale objective that won't be reached, this is about fixing a flaw in GW's game design.

Goon · Feb 05, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Since this pops up daily, despite threads like this being closed one after another:

Balance in GW is not grind dependant. Hence, it depends on player's choice of skills and their gameplay skill.

So, learn2play. Then no nerf will bother you.

The only people who complain about skill balance, are those that stumbled upon a gimmick build which was then (completely understandably to most) changed to no longer have an artificial edge.

So far, every build (team or individual) has been counterable. The changes that do occur, merely shake things up, so you don't run the same lame gimmick for 2 years.

And PvE is easy enough as it is. So the only way to balance the PvE skills would be to reduce the effectiveness of skills available to them.

i don't think saying 'LOL JUST L2P' is valid in a game like GW.
it is completely impossible to balance 65483659065 skills and 250 classes, which is why most of the GW skills are absolutely useless in pvp.

the game has been evolving more and more into what OP is suggesting here.
there is like 100 different skills being used in pvp atm. thats lik 1/8th or even less.

most GW skills has been left out of the balancing process almost completely.

Lonesamurai · Feb 05, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by xRustyx

My thread isn't about complaining, or some such. If you think PvP and PvE balance revolves around the same mechanic, then you are wrong. PvP and PvE are two completely different types of gameplay. The only thing similiar is the skills. This whole suggestion wasn't about drop rates or farming builds, and if you thought it was then please take the time to read it again. Alternatively you could hit quick reply and attempt to flame me, but I'm not personally attacking you only trying to change your opinion through logic.

Oh, I don't intend to attack you either, however you are wrong about the game, and having been playing since the beta's, I know FOR A FACT, that the game is balanced around PvP, as it was the original End Game of Guild Wars and most PvE, is set up in the hope that it will play somewhat like PvP... Ok, I agree that it fails, but that was the original plan and thats how it works now

c_ras · Feb 05, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

So......let's say that I have a PvE character that I use for PvP as well? Will my skills do a Lucky Charms thing by magically transforming from the PvE variation to the PvP variation, or will I be forced to roll a PvP character? I think the idea has been brought up before. No matter what side you are on (PvE or PvP), people just need to learn to adapt. When things change, it gives you a little bit more of a challenge than just the standard cookie cutter builds that get you through PvE or PvP.

Undivine · Feb 05, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

We have enough theads on this topic. Please try to keep it to the same thread. You should know the rules: search and check the Index, then post.

And incidentally, "balancing" the skills is not done to correct broken skills; it's done to change the game and make it feel fresher. That's what ANet said, anyway. They won't "finish" balancing the game until the day they stop supporting it.